Who is God to You?

[asi1998]

This has turned into a debate about evolution, which anyone can learn about, as Google's a thing. asi just clearly doesn't want to learn anything different than what he already "knows."

So let's turn this back around to the existence of a god.

I want to see what actual scientific proof exists that god is real. Do you have any studies that cite real evidence, asi? And please, no "you just gotta have faith" or "I heard that..." or "just gotta look around you at the beauty of the Earth to see proof that there's a god"s. I wanna see a study that proves it.

God's miracles are phenomal but check this out also:

http://www.creationism.org/heinze/SciEvidGodLife.htm

In addition to this, when has macro evolution ever been observed? Please show me an article or something.

[Spyboticsguy]

This is a place for mature discussion about religious and political philosophies.

Flaming for ones beliefs will not be tolerated and proper consequences will follow if this occurs.

These discussions will stay in this forum only. They are not to come in other forums or the server.

Keep it civil, or this forum will go away.

[asi1998]

The starting sample was all identical. It was then divided into several groups, which were all identical. Later on, they were all different. You seriously think that there was that much variation in the original population?
Also, there is no such thing as microevolution.

After 50,000 generations I would at least expect my descendants to look slightly different (more like what evolution states we will evolve into next).

That makes no sense. Preserve some gazelles... from what? The fast cheetahs? Why are the cheetahs fast? To catch gazelles. Why do they need to be fast? Because cheetahs are fast.
If there was a creator, why wouldn't both gazelles and cheetahs be slower? Why waste so many resources?

I do not know. I am not God. He made them fast because He wanted to.

[697134002]

The starting sample was all identical. It was then divided into several groups, which were all identical. Later on, they were all different. You seriously think that there was that much variation in the original population?
Also, there is no such thing as microevolution.

After 50,000 generations I would at least expect my descendants to look slightly different (more like what evolution states we will evolve into next).

That makes no sense. Preserve some gazelles... from what? The fast cheetahs? Why are the cheetahs fast? To catch gazelles. Why do they need to be fast? Because cheetahs are fast.
If there was a creator, why wouldn't both gazelles and cheetahs be slower? Why waste so many resources?

I do not know. I am not God. He made them fast because He wanted to.

1: Yeah, and they WERE different. They became larger and had more rounded shapes, but not in the same manner. In fact, the mutations causing the size and shape changes were different for each group. And it is difficult to predict what the future will bring in terms of evolution. We can't predict what mutations will arise or what selection pressures there will be in the future.

2: So, it's a blood sport? Fast cheetahs chasing fast gazelles is more entertaining than slow cheetahs chasing slow gazelles?
Also, there's a nerve in your trachea (windpipe). To get to the brain, it goes down and around the heart, then back up and to the brain. That's a long detour, but evolution can answer that - Our ancestors had windpipes which were farther back, along with a different posture. The detour around the heart no longer becomes a detour then.

And... the eye. The human eye is terrible. Light goes in, passes through a layer of cells, then passes through a lens, and then hits the retina. The information is then sent to the brain. Upside-down. The brain must then correct that. That is quite inefficient.
Many creatures have better eyesight than we do, despite supposedly being the favoured creations. Why do they have better eyesight than we do? In addition, more than 10% of humans have some form of partial or full colourblindness. Although there are some advantages to this, they are not expressed as often in the sort of societies people have been living in for the past 12000 or so years.
Why would a creator make us so flawed?
Oh, and the appendix. It's a vestigial organ, which means that it serves no beneficial purpose. It can cause appendicitis, which can be fatal. Why would a creator give us that?
Evolution can answer that.
A corresponding organ found in herbivores such as horses and koalas, called the cecum, which is simply a more complex appendix, is used to break down cellulose, which comes from plant matter. Our ancestors would have eaten leaves, which are difficult to digest. A cecum can help with that. Ever since we stopped, there has been no selection pressure to have a good appendix, and the appendix has slowly mutated, losing all of its function.

So, which sounds more likely? That a creator made humans so flawed, or that we are the product of evolution over billions of years? (4.5, to be more specific)

[SneakyPie]

Be very, very careful Furd. With that comment you have insulted many members as well as staff members.

It's good to know you look down on so many people as they are your intellectual inferiors. Stay classy.

[697134002]

This has turned into a debate about evolution, which anyone can learn about, as Google's a thing. asi just clearly doesn't want to learn anything different than what he already "knows."

So let's turn this back around to the existence of a god.

I want to see what actual scientific proof exists that god is real. Do you have any studies that cite real evidence, asi? And please, no "you just gotta have faith" or "I heard that..." or "just gotta look around you at the beauty of the Earth to see proof that there's a god"s. I wanna see a study that proves it.

God's miracles are phenomal but check this out also:

http://www.creationism.org/heinze/SciEvidGodLife.htm

In addition to this, when has macro evolution ever been observed? Please show me an article or something.

Seeing as there is no such thing as macro or micro evolution, I'll hazard a guess that you mean a large mutation.
And it was last observed when someone got a vaccination against a virus. We need regular vaccinations because viruses, due to their rapid reproduction, mutate quickly. Mutations which enhance their ability to fight vaccines are favoured.

Oh, and that link ignores the fact that amino acids have been created in labs. So, yeah. Your link is completely inaccurate.

[Andrew_Dayton]

Be very, very careful Furd. With that comment you have insulted many members as well as staff members.

It's good to know you look down on so many people as they are your intellectual inferiors. Stay classy.

Agreed, even I felt offended by that.

I don't think we'll ever understand God on the grounds that our brains can't process the infinite. We don't have infinite processing power to understand something which is everywhere at once with control over everything. As a christian though I do believe in evolution, I do believe the world is around 6 billion years old, I do love studying science, I am pro-abortion, and I hate the pope. I'm not what you probably think of as a christian.

[Furdabip]

Be very, very careful Furd. With that comment you have insulted many members as well as staff members.

It's good to know you look down on so many people as they are your intellectual inferiors. Stay classy.

This is why I normally stfu when religious debates come up. I am INSANELY antitheist and frequently offend lots of people. However the wording was, I didn't mean to offend by it. Just trying to relate how it feels to be atheist when listening to Christians talk about "god" in terms that a Christian might understand. I'm sure any religious person thinks at least SOME others are stupid for believing something that sounds outlandish to them, so they should be able to understand.

Also, keep in mind that I am NOT attacking any individual person. I am attacking religion. Nobody should take offense when I say stuff like "OMG LYK REILGION R TEH STEWPID!!!111." I'm sure there are completely intelligent people who still believe such outlandish things like the moon landing being faked. It doesn't make them stupid, it just makes them wrong. Being wrong isn't bad, it gives you a chance to better yourself. It's the people who never want to admit they are wrong that take offense when someone attacks their ideas.

And after explaining that, I shall now go back to my default behaviour of stfu'ing when religious debate comes up.

[vallorn]

Oh and if your trying to disprove something. use a credible source. not one with dinosaurs and modern animals living together on the banner... that just weakens your argument.

I believe dinosaurs still exist today. As a matter of fact they found fresh dinosaur blood cells in Montana in the 1990s. In addition, to successfuly prove that dinosaurs no longer exist people must be positioned all over the earth (Including Underwater) at the same time and look around to see if they see any kind of dinosaur (Most dinosaurs were only about the size of a small sheep).

You quote this find. I have a massive amount of interest in Paleontology (Dinosaur fossils and biology) and have never heard of this. and since you never linked anything im going to say its probably a falsehood like that log some guy thought was Nessie.

Macro evolution you say? Dinosaurs => Birds. there. now go to Google and start researching Macro evolution on noncreationist sites. simply reading one side of an argument weakens your points intensely. hell im a mid-right politics guy but I read Leftie stuff because I find it intellectually stimulating to pick through their arguments and see the world from another persons point of view.

also about proteins. I do Chemistry and Biology. In a lab I can take 2 amino acids, mix them together. add one chemical and a bit of heat and HEY PRESTO I get a protein. DNA is a very clever molecule, its actually a catyalyst with multiple different active sites for various protiens.

Let me give you the timeline of life as we understand it so far:

• Amino acids form from the chemical mixtures in the early earth.
• A single molecule of RNA forms within the soup (Thats all it takes)
• This molecule replicates using the chemicals within the soup
• Mutations in the RNA cause it to create new proteins from the amino acids surrounding it, many of these are duds or are actively harmful to the RNA so these mutations rapidly die out, some mutations which are beneficial survive even better.
• More mutations in the RNA occur causing it to produce proteins that form a shell around it which protects it from harmful chemicals yet still allows it to replicate. this RNA molecule survives better than the original RNA molecules and so its birth/death ratio is higher meaning its population expands faster. this is the first Prokaryotic Cell

However I as a person will admit that we barley understand how Life began. We dont know the conditions of the earth, the concentrations of various chemicals in the early atmosphere or what conditions Actualy conspired to give birth to this first molecule of life. WE DONT KNOW. and thats the fun part. knowing everything is boring, If we knew everything there would be nothing more to discover, no reason to think or explore, the universe would be a drab place.

Now. Please give me documented empirical evidence of your Diety's Miracles.

Insert inflammatory and sweeping statements here

Furd be VERY careful. looking down on people for any reason is a bad idea. Everyone has a viewpoint and understanding and analyzing those viewpoints allows you to see the world through another persons eyes which makes you a better person.

I used to be a Christian, I couldn't make the commitment to it because I disagreed with so many things like Andrew does and so didn't want to associate myself with the people who abuse it. but the Bible is a wonderful book. Im not sure whether there is a god but if there is Im sure he wouldn't care whether I spend my Sundays on my knees praising him, Helping my fellow man or digging deep into the mysteries and patterns of the universe that he created. The bible speaks much of the time in parable and conjecture too so it is quite possible that the story of creation is simply another one of His parables.

[Jake55778]

Controversy

Bluntly put though it was I think this still raises a valid point: how do religious people reconcile the idea of other religions past and present? I'm sure the ancient Egyptians were just as dedicated to Ra or the Greeks to Zeus as any modern Christian is to God. Their claims were no less outlandish, their proofs no more substantial, why were they wrong but you are right?
What about modern religions? Is somebody raised a Sikh or a Hindu condemned to hell simply for being born into the wrong culture? What argument can you offer against their gods that cannot also be applied to yours?

[DuplicateValue]

Be very, very careful Furd. With that comment you have insulted many members as well as staff members.

It's good to know you look down on so many people as they are your intellectual inferiors. Stay classy.

[LS13]

You can't prove that God either exists or does not exist, so why argue about it?

The only thing we can be sure of is that these discussions typically end up being the ramblings of zealous believers and deniers who have a need to feel more intellectually superior than the other.

Completely agree with this, but i think ill say a few things before backing out of this and watching yall throw more links and stuff at eachother.

On the topic of the cheetas and many things in here asking why "God" would do something: If i were god and could do whatever i wanted, why not screw around with things and make them so they adapt. Makes things more interesting if u ask me.

Ive been brought up as a christian in a ridiculously diverse area. I have friends of many, many religions and we all find that it isnt worth it to argue about who's religion is correct or whether or not there is a god at all. Religion is a VERY sensitive topic and everyone needs to think of that more often when trying to disprove eachother. Try actually listening to what other people say (dont have to believe them or convert to their religion). Its actually fun in my opinion to learn about different cultures and religions, and beats arguing about who is right.

[LS13]

Oh and ps: not all christians, atheists, muslims, etc. are true to the general stereotype image commonly given them. Not everyone forces their ideas and beliefs on others, and it reeeally disappoints me when people think that. Also, I personnally dont think anyone is lower intellectually than me based on their beliefs. Who knows, maybe they are correct and im wrong? Just think about that for a sec, what if what u believe isnt correct and that crazy guy that believes in something else is right? (Not edited into my above post due to me doing this on my phone, and editing on my phone sucks)

[697134002]

Oh and ps: not all christians, atheists, muslims, etc. are true to the general stereotype image commonly given them. Not everyone forces their ideas and beliefs on others, and it reeeally disappoints me when people think that. Also, I personnally dont think anyone is lower intellectually than me based on their beliefs. Who knows, maybe they are correct and im wrong? Just think about that for a sec, what if what u believe isnt correct and that crazy guy that believes in something else is right? (Not edited into my above post due to me doing this on my phone, and editing on my phone sucks)

Even if someone turns out to be right, it does not mean that their method was correct.
A crazy person who says that we live in a unicorn's stomach and offers no evidence whatsoever to support his beliefs is not smarter than others if he turns out to be right. He was making a guess and had a tiny chance of being right.

[LS13]

Ok fine then ill just throw out what i was hoping u people would get out of that: Stop claiming that u r right and get on with ur lives. This thread has just become a place to bash on people's beliefs and has strayed completely off of what the thread was originally intended for. Now stop being total dicks about everything despite your differences in beliefs. As a reminder here is what this thread is for:

When you think of God, what automatically comes to your mind? I think of my creator who loves everyone and who is most definitely real. He is loving and active and is not all about rules and following them.

This post is to discuss God in a formal way. Please be respectful and try to refrain from ad homenim attacks. In addition, plese do not try to force your views on anyone. We are all free to believe what we want whether someone else thinks we are right or not.

[Tomenaki]

The rest of this thread aside, all I say is that god is nothing to me, since I don't think he/she/it exists. So I say simply one word: Meh.

[Jake55778]

Also, I personnally dont think anyone is lower intellectually than me based on their beliefs. Who knows, maybe they are correct and im wrong?

Not even the most militant atheist will ever claim that being religious makes a person stupid, merely wrong.

Just think about that for a sec, what if what u believe isnt correct and that crazy guy that believes in something else is right?

I will happily change my opinion on any subject, religion included, if presented with sufficient evidence. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence however. The only arguments I've heard in defense of theism have all relied on circular logic referring back to a holy book , or simply vague personal feeling of spirituality.

So I say simply one word: Meh.

Good answer, much more succinct than my ramblings.

[LS13]

Never used the word stupid, and for the record yes i have been called stupid by an athiest for my beliefs, and im seriously not a very religious person. Now its 3:20 here in the morning and im tired of this thread and tired in general so im going to stop arguing this, please no one post an essay on why someone else's beliefs are wrong

[duhriddler]

This thread has just become a place to bash on people's beliefs and has strayed completely off of what the thread was originally intended for.

This thread went from "Who is God to you?" (A rather simple question requiring little to no explanation) to "what are/defend your beliefs" by the 4th post. By the OP no less:

Me, I'm an atheist. I can't disprove the notion of some kind of intelligence shaping the creation of the universe,

So can you tell me from where you believe this intelligence came and was incorporated into the creation of the universe?

The thread seems to have been taken exactly where the OP intended to go.

As for who God is to me, I'm an antitheist. Everything you need to know about my beliefs can be inferred from that. Because I feel the banhammer looms close over this thread, I shall say no more.

[Cpt_Harlock]

Promised myself I would never enter this section of the forums... I've failed.

But I find a lot of people who don't believe in God or dislike religious people seem to use arguments insisting that anyone who believes in a God or an after life thinks everyone else's ideas or views on religion are wrong...

This isn't always the case (though I know it is for some people). Some people believe that god, an afterlife, or a greater "force" that we cannot understand exists but are still open to all scientific views and people with other beliefs.

I hate that Religion and Science are portrayed only as enemies. As if one cannot exist with the other. Hell, all of science is a miracle if you think about it... The chances of all the things to create this world, this universe, and us is so small. And if one of these millions of small chances didn't happen we might not exist. Why is it wrong to think it was guided in this direction by something other than luck?

And the way I see it honestly is.. if there's nothing after death and no consequences for what you do in life.. Why not do something crazy and jump out of a plane and enjoy the feeling of flying and be thoroughly enjoying yourself at the end of your life =\ no consequences. And please nobody take that as me telling you to jump out of a plane... I'm just saying. Why wouldn't everyone in the world do whatever they wanted no matter how morally wrong if it's what they wanted to do if there was really no evil? Or no hell? Or no punishment?

I'm not joining this conversation to tell anyone they're wrong. I love all types of people, no matter what they believe in. If there is no afterlife, then we would all meet the same end right? But if there is we might not. I don't know if there is a God, a Jesus, A Buddha, an Allah... But I like to believe there's a reason I should try to be the best person I can be and do what I can for others. I just feel if there's no God or greater place to go then why does it feel "right" or good to help people and do the "right" thing?

I honestly don't know... But I feel IF there is an afterlife, then all good people deserve to go. Christians, Catholics, Buddhists, Muslims, Atheists... everyone who goes out of their way to be a better person and be selfless. Yes, even atheists. Cause I don't believe anyone needs to read a certain book, go to a certain holy house, or pray to a certain God. If there is a God then what reason would he have to punish anyone who's been a great person.. I don't believe any God that Holy would be selfish enough to cast someone to hell for not worshiping THEM.

I know there are probably very few who share these feelings... which is why I don't expect anyone to agree. I just decided to say how I feel.

[LS13]

(Why the hell am i still awake) You have a point there in that asi did ask for more info, however in my opinion the discussion progressively got to the point where it was simply "hey look at this reason why ur opinion is wrong" which im sure was not the point of this thread. Now my turn for "who is god to you"

Im not entirely sure who god is to me. All my life ive been brought up by my ridiculously churchy mom to accept everything in the bible as truth. However the bible is like anything written in that it can be interpreted in infinite ways, which ticks me off cause people start quoting scripture at eachother and claiming different interpretations as the absolute truth. But hey, im still in high school and have my entire life to figure out what to believe in. I do believe there is a god, but as to if its the god from the bible im not exactly sold on that. The bible has been translated into different languages and dialects many times, stories written down were originally passed by word of mouth before being written down, and the bible has been combed over and censored countless times. So if u ask me its not the most reliable thing out there to base all of ur beliefs on. But i do believe there is something out there. Dont ask why i believe what i do cause my beliefs have been 16 years in the making and would take me a very long time to explain. And that time could be better spent living life.

And as i tried posting this i saw that cpt posted before me and basically stated my views in a much easier to understand way. When im tired i tend not to get my point across.

[Jake55778]

And the way I see it honestly is.. if there's nothing after death and no consequences for what you do in life.. Why not do something crazy and jump out of a plane and enjoy the feeling of flying and be thoroughly enjoying yourself at the end of your life =\ no consequences.

Why would no afterlife = no consequences?
If anything it makes what you do in life of greater consequence. If this life is all there is then that makes it all the more precious. The good deeds you do aren't just a means to buy your way into heaven, or performed out of fear of hell, but done for their own sake because you genuinely care about others.

Not being promised an eternal life after death makes you appreciate how short and beautiful life before death is. The last thing I would want to do is cut it short prematurely by jumping out of a plane.

[The Bum]

I know there are probably very few who share these feelings... which is why I don't expect anyone to agree. I just decided to say how I feel.

You are wrong sir. Well said! Well said indeed.

[Cpt_Harlock]

And the way I see it honestly is.. if there's nothing after death and no consequences for what you do in life.. Why not do something crazy and jump out of a plane and enjoy the feeling of flying and be thoroughly enjoying yourself at the end of your life =\ no consequences.

Why would no afterlife = no consequences?
If anything it makes what you do in life of greater consequence. If this life is all there is then that makes it all the more precious. The good deeds you do aren't just a means to buy your way into heaven, or performed out of fear of hell, but done for their own sake because you genuinely care about others.

Not being promised an eternal life after death makes you appreciate how short and beautiful life before death is. The last thing I would want to do is cut it short prematurely by jumping out of a plane.

Well a consequence is the result or the outcome of something. So if there is no afterlife then the consequence of life is always death. Though, if there is an afterlife, the consequences could be multiple things. So yes, I was wrong, it is not that there is "no consequences" but only 1 consequence shared by everyone if there is no after life.

And I'm not claiming you meant it this way, but when a religious person does good deeds it's not always to buy themselves into heaven or to avoid hell. There are both Christians and Atheists who genuinely care about others and want to live their life they have here to the fullest. And there are lots of Christians and Atheists who are terrible people...

But my only point in what you quoted is that if there are not multiple consequences for what you do during your life here on earth then it really wouldn't matter what you did at all... I'm not saying you wouldn't do good things if there isn't a reward, cause there are definitely people who do genuinely care about others, but I'm just saying there would be nothing to punish you for not doing good things but death itself. Which in an atheist's view seems to be what we all will share at the end of our lives.

Maybe some believe just for that reason. Why should everyone get the same ending when some tried so much harder than others. If you look at the way people treat others then it's easy to see that we are all not equal. But that can also be looked at as selfish... But it's odd to think that someone who went out of their way to save lives has the same exact consequence as someone who set out to end lives. Death, and nothing more.

[tanisjihanis]

(I didn't read any of this stuff^)

God to me is a number of things.

While I don't believe in an all powerful caring entity in the platter that christianity serves up, the idea of god brings up conflicting ideas for me. First and foremost is a negative conotation, with the idea of god being used by the church in the time before colonization of America to further their own goals and bring pain and suffering where there already was a fair amount. (IE paying the church when you sinned to wipe those sins, the idea of self mutilation, fasting, and hindering some of the technological advances of the time)

On the other hand, The idea of god helped bring people together under one concept and paved the way for a fair bit of modern civilization. It has also helped many people push onwards in dark times by thinking that someone is out there and wants to help them. I do believe that morals should be held separate from religion, but it is hard to deny that many of our idea of morals origin from christianity and the threat of ever burning hell.

~lMy 2 cents

[Pinmissile]

sp.jpg

[697134002]

Promised myself I would never enter this section of the forums... I've failed.

But I find a lot of people who don't believe in God or dislike religious people seem to use arguments insisting that anyone who believes in a God or an after life thinks everyone else's ideas or views on religion are wrong...

This isn't always the case (though I know it is for some people). Some people believe that god, an afterlife, or a greater "force" that we cannot understand exists but are still open to all scientific views and people with other beliefs.

I hate that Religion and Science are portrayed only as enemies. As if one cannot exist with the other. Hell, all of science is a miracle if you think about it... The chances of all the things to create this world, this universe, and us is so small. And if one of these millions of small chances didn't happen we might not exist. Why is it wrong to think it was guided in this direction by something other than luck?

And the way I see it honestly is.. if there's nothing after death and no consequences for what you do in life.. Why not do something crazy and jump out of a plane and enjoy the feeling of flying and be thoroughly enjoying yourself at the end of your life =\ no consequences. And please nobody take that as me telling you to jump out of a plane... I'm just saying. Why wouldn't everyone in the world do whatever they wanted no matter how morally wrong if it's what they wanted to do if there was really no evil? Or no hell? Or no punishment?

I'm not joining this conversation to tell anyone they're wrong. I love all types of people, no matter what they believe in. If there is no afterlife, then we would all meet the same end right? But if there is we might not. I don't know if there is a God, a Jesus, A Buddha, an Allah... But I like to believe there's a reason I should try to be the best person I can be and do what I can for others. I just feel if there's no God or greater place to go then why does it feel "right" or good to help people and do the "right" thing?

I honestly don't know... But I feel IF there is an afterlife, then all good people deserve to go. Christians, Catholics, Buddhists, Muslims, Atheists... everyone who goes out of their way to be a better person and be selfless. Yes, even atheists. Cause I don't believe anyone needs to read a certain book, go to a certain holy house, or pray to a certain God. If there is a God then what reason would he have to punish anyone who's been a great person.. I don't believe any God that Holy would be selfish enough to cast someone to hell for not worshiping THEM.

I know there are probably very few who share these feelings... which is why I don't expect anyone to agree. I just decided to say how I feel.

1: If you believe in something without empirical evidence and continue to despite the lack of empirical evidence, you are not being open to scientific views any more than someone who believes in unicorns.

2: Religion and Science ARE enemies. Religion involves believing in something in spite of the lack of evidence. Science involves finding evidence and then figuring out what it means. Science challenges religious beliefs and tries to find the truth. And it's not wrong, so long as you don't act on it. Believe that the universe was made by an insane space monkey if you want. But don't try to affect other people with it, as it is almost certainly not true, just as it is almost certainly not true that we live inside a giant unicorn or that trees are part of an evil plan to take over the world. But if you can provide evidence for the insane space monkey, or the giant unicorn, or the evil trees, then you can try to affect other people with it.

3: The implication of that is that you would have no problem with murder if you weren't religious. The number of atheists and agnostics in American prisons is, if I remember correctly, less than 1%. That's far smaller than the number outside of prisons. So that idea's no good. But why do atheists not go on killing sprees? Genetics, nurture and a desire to enjoy life. Why not just kill yourself in an awesome way? Because then life is over. You can't enjoy yourself any more. Also, genetics. But also you can't enjoy yourself any more.

4: If there is a god, what reason would it have to reward or punish anyone?

Screen shot 2012-07-02 at 10.11.59 AM.png

That is the position of Earth in the universe. We are unimaginably tiny. Why would a being capable of creating that even care about us? Assuming you accept evolution as fact, what makes humans special enough to go to eternal paradise and not other creatures? Shouldn't chimpanzees or bonobos be able to go to heaven, too? Okay, so then they do. What about gorillas? Orangutans? Gibbons? What about other primates? Other mammals? Reptiles? Fish? Trees? Single-celled organisms? Viruses? Relevant comics?

[Andrew_Dayton]

69 answer me this, if religion and science are enemies then why am I a christian who loves science? I love understanding more about the universe and I spent many years learning about military technology (before learning I can't join due to horrible military discrimination). Despite the fact that I love science I gave three dead baby birds a christian funeral in my backyard and I go to church (except for the past few weeks during which I hate my pastor).

[duhriddler]

But my only point in what you quoted is that if there are not multiple consequences for what you do during your life here on earth then it really wouldn't matter what you did at all... I'm not saying you wouldn't do good things if there isn't a reward, cause there are definitely people who do genuinely care about others, but I'm just saying there would be nothing to punish you for not doing good things but death itself. Which in an atheist's view seems to be what we all will share at the end of our lives.

Maybe some believe just for that reason. Why should everyone get the same ending when some tried so much harder than others. If you look at the way people treat others then it's easy to see that we are all not equal. But that can also be looked at as selfish... But it's odd to think that someone who went out of their way to save lives has the same exact consequence as someone who set out to end lives. Death, and nothing more.

The universe doesn't need to be fair, and has in fact proven that it can be very unfair. Some good people get cancer, and some bad people make more money in a day than you will in your lifetime. However, we do have a judicial system for a reason. If someone does something bad and gets caught, they could spend a very large chunk of their only life locked up in a fairly unpleasant place. What's more, due to simply having been in jail, their life once they're released gets harder. Finding a decent job when you have to put "Been in jail for (blank)" on your resume is difficult to say the least.

Unfortunately, our system of laws is far from perfect. You can get away with almost anything if you have enough money. Even if you don't have lots of money, you can get away with things if there isn't enough evidence. Perhaps worst of all, some innocent people manage to get locked up. It will never be perfect, but it can be improved with effort from some of the good people out there. However, I see no justice in something like hell. Does anyone, no matter what their crimes are, deserve an ETERNITY of torment? Who has done a crime worthy of INFINITE punishment? One could systematically kill every person on this planet and still not warrant that level of punishment. Extinguishing an entire galaxy comes closer, but now we are dealing with a cosmic scale. Also, think about things this way: Chances are, if someone does a horrible crime (murder, torture, rape, etc) they are likely either genetically predisposed to do so, or have had their mind altered (brainwashing, certain diseases, life events, etc). Yes, their actions are horrible, and they should be kept away from population at large, but do they deserve an eternity of torment for something that isn't really within their control? What if you got a brain injury, it made you highly aggressive, and you killed somebody? Do you think you would deserve an eternity of torment for it?

Similarly, what possible deeds could qualify a person for an eternal paradise? Even the best philanthropist in the world can only affect so much of it. On even a global scale, any deeds you are likely to do will be unnoticeable at best, let alone a universal scale. Could one, in the roughly 100 years of life they have on this planet, do enough good to make them worthy of eternal paradise? If any person that's at least mostly good can be worthy of that, then I don't see any justice there either. Both the reward and the punishment are infinitely disproportionate, and thus perhaps infinitely unjust.

Justice can only be found here, in the life that we have now. Our justice may be far from perfect, but your options are either to accept that and continue living, or work to make it better.

[Furdabip]

69 answer me this, if religion and science are enemies then why am I a christian who loves science?

That's a good question - why DO you claim Christianity, when you seem to believe all the things that go against the basic dogma of your religion? Have you read the bible, and seen how your god expects you to live? You're already sinning. If you DON'T believe in the bible, then, again, why cling to Christianity, or any religion at all?